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June 2

Why females produce androgens

If human embryons of both sexes start off from a female blueprint and given that females lack the male Y chromosome, how it came that women also produce androgens (even if in small quantity), with related limb and facial hair? 212.180.235.46 (talk) 19:59, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The article you linked says that the ovaries also produce androgens. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:33, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Biological systems weren't built by any sort of logical designer. They in no way resemble a computer program, a computer, or, for that matter, anything else in the universe. In the case of androgens, the article mentions that androgens are the precursors to estrogens. Males need estrogens too, btw. All these are steroids, which are fundamental to life and are derived from cholesterol. Abductive (reasoning) 23:18, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Biological systems weren't built by any sort of logical designer." Which is why so-called "intelligent design" is just nonsense. The "design" is emphatically not "intelligent". --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 12:07, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure biology and computing are as far apart as they used to be now that systems essentially create the gigantic opaque function that transforms input to output themselves in response to their environment/what they have seen and the objectives. Generative adversarial networks for example seem a bit closer to biology than systems used to be. Sean.hoyland (talk) 13:06, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not in a billion years. Abductive (reasoning) 17:51, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The technology for synthetic biology, still in its infancy, is advancing with large strides. Whether you like it or not, sooner rather than later it will become possible to design and create complete viable and functioning biological organisms.  --Lambiam 06:40, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Further, the idea that it is so complicated that nobody understands what it does because it thinks for itself is a farce. No matter what is being used for the computing hardware, be it electronic or biological, the mechanism of operation is very well understood by the engineers who developed it. It just sounds cool to say that it is beyond comprehension. It doesn't sound cool to say that the engineers understand it very well and could trace input through to the output if they wanted to, but simply don't care to do because they have other things to work on. 12.116.29.106 (talk) 14:42, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Tracing the input through to the output is IMO not a helpful concept. Not only do we not know why the most advanced chess or go playing programs make certain surprising moves, but it is not even clear what it means to "understand" why they did this. The computing platform performs a calculation with a certain outcome. The engineers can perform the same calculation by hand, or using abaci, and if they make no mistake they may arrive at the same result in a few billion years: 42. But can they say more than that the answer is 42 because this is the consequence of the rules applied to the input? They knew that already. If someone wants to know why it is the consequence, they can tell them to repeat the calculation.  --Lambiam 15:51, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
IP, LLMs for example involve activations in very high dimensional spaces. Trying to map those activation patterns to things we can understand, like concepts etc., is the whole field of interpretability, and it is in its infancy (and safety critical). Engineers are still far from understanding why input A to a model is transformed into output B. If this is something that interests you, have a look at the work being done in Anthropic's lab. Sean.hoyland (talk) 17:16, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Overgrown Markov Chain models are pretty much useless in any technical field. BTDT Greglocock (talk) 04:48, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I guess that's one of the reasons why "Attention Is All You Need" turned out to be such a great title for a paper. Sean.hoyland (talk) 08:39, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

June 5

Prostheses

what are the matrials uesed in implantable artificial prostheses, such as artificial hearts and small-diameter blood vessels; in the engineering of living tissues ? -- 196.153.184.240

Heart valves usually made from pyrolytic carbon. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10034107/#:~:text=Mechanical%20valves%2C%20usually%20made%20from,stroke%20(3%2C%204). 41.23.55.195 (talk) 06:13, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Many different materials are used depending on requirements. For details see prosthesis and the many links therefrom.Shantavira|feed me 15:30, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

June 6

Health risk of taurine consumption

Realistically, how worried should people be about the health risks of consuming taurine as a supplement? I only ask because half the literature says they find it helpful and beneficial at some unknown dosage, while the other half says it is potentially carcinogenic and could contribute to colon cancer. As a layperson, I find this very confusing. Some of the literature says it could be simply a matter of dosage, but nobody seems to know what the safe or harmful limits are. Can anyone offer some risk analysis devoid of emotion? Should we avoid anything with taurine in it, or not worry at all about it? Viriditas (talk) 01:27, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As far as Wikipedia is concerned, WP:MEDRS applies. That means that the minimum quality level for WP:RS making medical claims are systematic reviews indexed for MEDLINE (there are some exceptions from this indexation, but generally speaking MEDLINE is the gold standard). tgeorgescu (talk) 03:29, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Our article states that there is no good clinical evidence that taurine supplements provide any benefit to human health, Why pay for useless supplements? The human body naturally produces a large amount of taurine, far more than one can reasonably take in as a supplement. There is increasing evidence that taurine actually plays a role in preventing cancer.[1] Any carcinogenicity of supplements can only be due to their being fake, or a lack of quality control in their production.  --Lambiam 07:23, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The underlying issue is that large doses of taurine are added to energy drinks. Nobody seems to know why. A current study is looking at an association between energy drink consumption and the rise in colon cancer in young adults.[2] Viriditas (talk) 08:23, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Even disregarding any potential carcinogenic risks, there are enough studies that show damaging health effects of high consumption levels of energy drinks.[3][4]  --Lambiam 18:28, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
¼ liter of my favorite energy drink has 80 mg caffeine, while adults usually consume up to 400 mg caffeine per day. And I use the energy drink totally without sugar. tgeorgescu (talk) 18:59, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The energy drink thing may be related; most energy drinks contain vitamin B12. There is a concern that (mega)dosing B12 in excess of daily requirements carries with it a slight increase in risk of cancer due to B12 containing cobalt, which is both a heavy metal and has a trace of radioactive cobalt-60. Abductive (reasoning) 20:25, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, that's helpful. I just read the comments by the epidemiologist on that topic, and while my reading might be flawed, they seemed to indicate that dosage and tobacco smoking played a significant role in the risk. Viriditas (talk) 22:02, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Real skepticism cuts both ways. Taurine is in human breast milk, evidence of benefit of at least one energy drink exceeding risk. :-) But our article has imho excessive, even dubious doubt in that section on its conditional essentiality or benefit for infants, and thus its common use in another energy drink. Doubt that appears to stem from OR or opinion rather than the source, which says e.g. "Thus the new data provide further support for the view that taurine is a conditionally essential nutrient for the preterm infant" & that ethical considerations seem to prevent further research.John Z (talk) 03:57, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]



June 9

Weigeltisaurus species clarification

Is this Weigeltisaurus reptile in this family Rhynchocephalia. Would that statement be true to say. Its for this article Johannes Weigelt. There is source that states it but I don't know how accurate it is. scope_creepTalk 21:23, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

While Weigeltisaurus flourished in the Late Permian, our article on the order Rhynchocephalia states that the oldest record of the group is dated to the Middle Triassic. According to this chronology, a gap of several million years separates them.  --Lambiam 07:21, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Right. I'll leave the Rhynchocephalia bit out and only mention the Weigeltisaurus bit, since I don't understand it. Thanks @Lambiam: scope_creepTalk 08:52, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

June 11

Can we agree on what the rule of the Council of Nicaea actually was?

Banned user
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
  • Transferred from Humanities desk

Let me highlight Jack's comment above:

...What is or is not legal is a matter for courts or legislatures to determine. Not the media, not individual partisan politicians, not the man in the street, not the reasonable man, and not random commentators (on Wikipedia or anywhere else). -- 22:23, 6 June 2024

So why is Wikipedia still saying Wedding of Prince Harry and Meghan Markle#Preceding private ceremony "The Church of England sources commented that this was not a legally recognised marriage ceremony, which requires two witnesses", citing journalist and radio commentator Camilla Tominey, who screamed down the telephone I WILL NEVER WRITE THE STORY that Camilla and Charles' wedding ceremony was a "non-qualifying ceremony" (i.e. void), following up with a stream of invective which only ended when she was cut off? And as the words "Registrar General" are eiusdum generis with the list of occupations provided by Jack, why is the linked article still saying "the Registrar General, Len Cook, determined that a civil marriage would in fact be valid"? The articles are so full of editorialising that it is best not to read them and go to [5] and [6] instead. Needless to say the "impediments to marriage" listed in the licence do not apply to the marriages of non-royals, because they were abolished by the Marriage Act which specifically states that its provisions have no applicability whatsoever to royal marriages. 92.25.129.245 (talk) 16:45, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Readers may be interested in a dream I just had. Following the inception of the discussion (Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities#June 7) about al-Biruni and the Byzantine calendar, before I went to bed last night (30 James, the day before the date marked with this year's "golden number" (11), 1 Eloise), I looked for the new moon and saw a very slender crescent low in the north-west. In the dream, I was at work and was told that Camilla Tominey and another presenter had arrived to interview me. The male presenter remained outside and Camilla came in. She was aggressive and incoherent, and after a while an aide entered and bundled her out. I heard him say as he took her away "You're not on the programme any more. We're changing the presenter." Then the other presenter came in and said "You're going to be on the programme - ATV." As we left, he commented "You're casually dressed." I said "Shall I go home and change into something more formal?" and he said "We'll dress you at the studio." Then he asked an assistant "She's carrying a handbag, take it from her." I thought "This is for the general election." Outside there were a number of vehicles. Beside one of them a woman staff member was restraining a short man with his hands behind his back. I woke up at this point and went downstairs. It was 1:30 AM. I switched on the radio and this song began playing: [7]. 92.12.79.187 (talk) 15:42, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As a matter of historical interest, one grouse the Muslims had about the imposition by the Caliphs of the new, unintercalated Islamic year for administrative purposes to replace the 365-day Zoroastrian year previously used in Persia was that it was shorter, which meant that the land tax would come round before the harvest had been collected! The Caliphs relented and reinstated the araji (land-tax) year for fiscal purposes.
But then another problem presented itself. The Muslim era began in AD 622 with the Hegira (flight) - the Persians later fixed the beginning of this era on Friday, 19 March. The Zoroastrian year needed periodic readjustment because it was itself on average six hours shorter than the Julian. Al-Biruni notes that there was a double adjustment of the start of the araji year during the reign of Yazdegerd I (AD 399-420). An araji era was introduced dating from AD 621. In a further recalibration, the Yazdegerdi era, still used by the Zoroastrians (Parsees), dates from the accession of Yazdegerd III on 16 June AD 632, so the Yazdegerdi era is eleven years behind the araji. In AD 895 there was another double readjustment of the start of the araji year. It moved from 1 Frawardin (12 April) to 1 Khordad (11 June), referred to as 11 Haziran (I think the Turks call June by this name to this day).
Today's Byzantine date (Monday, 2 Eloise), marks the imminent arrival of the Jewish Feast of Weeks (Pentecost), observed on the 6th of the corresponding Jewish month. It is barred from falling on Tuesday, Thursday or Saturday, and slots in this year this coming Wednesday (4 Eloise). Orthodox Whitsun is not till Sunday, 23 June (15 Eloise), because of the rule that Orthodox Easter falls on the Sunday after the Wednesday after the date of the Paschal Full Moon (14 Miri) between 1800 and 2099 inclusive, a sharp contrast with the Roman Catholic Church (but not it's Byzantine arm), which likes to time its Easter festivities to fall in the week after the "Purim Full Moon". The Orthodox consider the Catholics to be in error and they are right - the Council's direction was that the Easter full moon must not precede the equinox, but in 1582 Gregory XIII directed that it must be the first after the equinox. This led to his calendar being banned in Orthodoxy. 2.30.124.132 (talk) 15:43, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Some common Serbian names feature in the story. This article [1] includes the following points:
  • In addition to the issue of calendar reform, the Council of Constantinople (1923) also discussed possible union with the Anglican church and second marriage for priests
  • Vladimir Dimitrijevic, a conservative author, said the Council of Constantinople was among the greatest mistakes of the Orthodox Church in the 20th century

The author is Jovan Trpkovic. An article by M S Dimitrijevic and others[2] includes these points:

  • The Serbian delegation came to the Congress with a proposition for calendar reform authored by Maksim Trpkovic. He proposed the intercalation rule that the secular years in centuries which when divided by 9 have remainders of 0 or 4 will be leap years
  • The general opinion of the participants was that the better solution was to retain the Julian calendar and only delete thirteen days...

The information was duly sourced and added to Julian calendar. This led to one editor demanding that the contributor be banned from Wikipedia for "inserting false information into articles" because "if thirteen days are excised from the Julian calendar it is no longer Julian." He further demanded that articles be pre-emptively semi-protected to prevent editors removing any unsourced falsehoods added by others. His campaign was successful and false information, for example that the Greek government introduced the Gregorian calendar in 1923, is embedded in articles all over Wikipedia. The original Serbian proposal was in fact a proposal that the calendar already legislated by the Greek government should now be adopted by the Orthodox Church. As to where the Greek government got its calendar from, it's described here[3] although Trpkovic (who proposed it in 1900) denied all knowledge of Barnaba Oriani's calendar. Another example is the claim that "The reform of the calendar was authorised by a canon of the Council of Trent in 15.." (the last two digits of the date of the alleged canon are something of a movable feast, since they change periodically). 92.19.71.221 (talk) 15:14, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Trpkovic, Jovan (3 May 2024). "Orthodox Easter: calendar question continues to split the Church". Retrieved 11 June 2024.
  2. ^ Dimitrijevic, M S; Theodossiou, E Th; Mantarakis, P Z (2008). "Milutin Milankovic and the reform of the Julian calendar in 1923". Journal of Astronomical History and Heritage. 11 (1): 50–54.
  3. ^ Oriani, Barnaba (1785). De usu fractionum continuarum ad inveniendos ciclos calendarii novi et veteris. In: Appendix ad ephemerides anni 1786. Milan. pp. 132–154.

June 12

Grignard Reagent with Haloalkane

The reaction between a Grignard reagent () and an alkyl halide () gives what product? I see some sources saying there would be substitution reaction thus forming , whereas other source says there would be transmetallation thus forming . Thanks for your time, ExclusiveEditor Notify Me! 12:19, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The WP article on Grignard compounds itself states that "Grignard reagents do not typically react with organic halides, in contrast with their high reactivity with other main group halides. In the presence of metal catalysts, however, Grignard reagents participate in C-C coupling reactions." Also in this article there is a diagram of different reactions that show the reaction between R'-X and RMgX to yield the C-C coupling product (where R' should be a carbonyl-like moiety such as benzyl or allyl). Logically, the MgX+ cation should strongly bond with the halogen atom of R'-X during the reaction, resulting in a very stable salt MgX2. The more stable the products are, the more favorable a reaction pathway is. 2402:800:639D:9B0A:C9C4:BA57:2B8:DC89 (talk) 14:01, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
On otherhand, the transmetallation reaction requires that both two of the reactants must be organometallic compounds (i.e, contains at least a metal-carbon bond), which is not the case with one of your reactants R'-X.Vanadium-3065 (talk) 14:08, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
When forming a Grignard reagent by the standard method of adding an alkyl halide like EtBr to Magnesium turnings suspended in ether, controlling the exotherm by the rate of addition, there will be a point where the halide is being added to material that contains substantial amounts of EtMgBr. If coupling (i.e. the substitution reaction) were fast, the main product would be butane and it would be impossible to form a good yield of the Grignard reagent! My trusty "Advanced Organic Chemistry" by Jerry March says that you can deliberately encourage the coupling reaction by adding thallium (I) bromide, Cr, Co or Cu chlorides or various other reagents, depending on the type of Grignard reagent you have already formed. The mechanism is via the R-Metal intermediate which decomposes via free radicals. Mike Turnbull (talk) 15:08, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Check a SpringerLink reference

http://doi.org/10.1007/978-94-017-9861-7_22

Does anyone have access to this? If so, does it make any reference to the diet or hunting behaviour of Euthyrhynchus floridanus? Such claims were added without reference to this insect's article four years ago ([8]), and later someone dumped in a reference to this book. Nyttend (talk) 21:15, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think so. The closest I can find is "However, only a few notes about its life history on the field are known (Avila-Núñez et al. 2009 )" The reference is "Avila-Núñez JL, Ortega LDO, Pisarelli MPC (2009) Un caso de depredación de adulto de Gonodonta pyrgo Cramer 1777 (Lepidoptera: Noctuidae) por Euthyrhynchus floridanus(Linnaeus 1767)(Heteroptera: Pentatomidae: Asopinae). Entomotropica 23:173–175". (Btw, you should be eligible for Wikipedia Library; that's how I could access the book).--Wrongfilter (talk) 21:46, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

June 13

Synchronous orbit

Diagram showing my possibly flawed understanding of astronomic poles of a body with a synchronous orbit.

I think I understand the different poles (near pole, far pole, leading pole, trailing pole) and associated hemispheres of a body with a synchronous orbit, but I'd like to double-check. I've drawn (badly) a diagram showing my understanding of these things (see right), and I've given a shot at explaining it at Rhea (moon):

Rhea is tidally locked and rotates synchronously; that is, it rotates at the same speed it revolves (orbits), so one hemisphere is always facing towards Saturn. This is called the near pole. Equally, one hemisphere always faces forward, relative to the direction of movement; this is called the leading hemisphere; the other side is the trailing hemisphere, which faces backwards relative to the moon's motion.

Is this right, or am I missing something? Cheers, Cremastra (talk) 21:35, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have the impression some assumptions are missing from the definitions in our articles Poles of astronomical bodies and/or Synchronous rotation. Without additional assumptions, the aspect of the satellite as seen from the body it circles is subject to possibly significant libration. One assumption is that the orbit of the satellite is circular. The other is that its axis of rotation is aligned with the normal to the orbital plane – in other words, its poles of rotation and orbital poles coincide. Under these assumptions, your diagram corresponds with the definitions given. The intersection of the green–yellow band and the red–blue band is a pole of rotation and the three axes defined by the various kinds of pairs of opposite poles are at right angles to each other.  --Lambiam 18:35, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

June 14

Australian fizzy cans

What is the average mass of an (empty) Australian fizzy can of the typical size? It's easy to find pages talking about the amount of liquid a typical can holds (375 ml), but I can't find anything about the mass of the aluminium. Drink can gives a US figure, but that's not useful because cans here are a different size, and also it's a really rough estimate, being derived from a US-EPA source that says "assume 34 cans per pound". Nyttend (talk) 02:49, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

14.9 grams, according to the Australian Aluminium Council. [9] Figure is from 2001 and the trend seems to be downward so perhaps they're lighter today.  Card Zero  (talk) 04:41, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
An empty 330 ml beer can in New Zealand is 14-15 g. I expect an Australian can would be the same.-Gadfium (talk) 05:13, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Card Zero, thank you! Information added to the drink can article. If I had a large quantity, I suppose I could just weigh them and divide by the number, but I don't have a good scale, and I don't have room to hold a huge number for a representative sample anyway. Plus, I'd rather take them (and little cans, and plastic bottles, etc.) to redeem the deposit without amassing a huge quantity. Nyttend (talk) 05:21, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
About how much would a full can of Foster's weigh? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:23, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Don't ask an Australian that question. They never drink Fosters. HiLo48 (talk) 06:09, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
TV ads in America used to say that Foster's is Australian for "beer". Evidently that is not altogether true? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:51, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not in the last 40 years. The same goes for throwing another shrimp on the barbie. We call them prawns, not shrimps. HiLo48 (talk) 23:31, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Some Foster's ads, for your possible amusement. The comments are telling. [10] Also, Americans may not know shrimps from prawns, but we know all about barbie. There was a major movie about it last year. :) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:09, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Google says it's the typical size of 375ml, so add in the can and we're at about 390ml, just like Coca-Cola or Carlton Draught or Victoria Bitter. I know much more about alcohol containers than I did before Victoria introduced container deposit last year...never had an idea that Coke-diluted whiskey existed (what's the point of diluting a distilled beverage?), let alone was sold in cans with US-specific branding like Bourbon County, or was sold in 200ml cans. But I don't remember seeing Foster's cans in any of the neighbourhoods where I go on foot and collect discarded containers. Nyttend (talk) 05:37, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The reason I ask is that in Monty Python at the Hollywood Bowl, they were throwing what appeared to be full Foster's cans into the crowd. It occurred to me that if they were actually full, that could be dangerous. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:51, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Who is "Professor Cleveland Abbe" (Meteorology)

I might as well ask here as someone may be bored and can help solve a mystery. I recently added information published by "Professor Cleveland Abbe" to History of tornado research#19th century (specifically this article). He was the editor of Volume 25, Issue 6 of Monthly Weather Review, published in June 1897. However, after reading the "General Characteristics" (basically the introduction) to the academic paper, it doesn't actually say where Mr. Abbe is a professor, just that his title is "professor". At the time, Monthly Weather Review was run by the U.S. federal government (United States Weather Bureau), so he had to be some meteorological scientist.

It's a long shot, but if someone wants to try to check around for a scientist/professor named "Cleveland Abbe" in the late 1800s/early 1900s, maybe the university he is a professor of could be located. I honestly, don't expect an answer to this, but asking others never hurts. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 05:10, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cleveland Abbe has an article. :D  Card Zero  (talk) 05:16, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ultimate facepalm moment. LOL. Thank you Card_Zero! The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 05:16, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Scientists disappointed by a shared Nobel prize

Are there cases known when a scientist longed for the Nobel prize so much that he was disappointed by even a Nobel prize he had to share? --KnightMove (talk) 07:39, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

George Santos, but he got over it by the time he got his fourth one. Clarityfiend (talk) 10:05, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Art for blind people

I have just read the Fantastic Four comic and, before the usual superhero stuff gets started (an invasion of vampires, go figure), there's a brief slice of life intro in a museum. Alicia Masters, one of the characters, is blind, and the museum has reproductions of famous fine arts that can be touched, so that blind people can enjoy them as if reading braille (see here). Is that really a thing, or was the author making it up like the rest of the fantasy and sci-fi stuff? Cambalachero (talk) 13:30, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here's a couple of articles [11][12]. Sean.hoyland (talk) 15:30, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A tactile reproduction of Roy Lichtenstein's Whaam! for the Tate Modern gallery in London, which offers "touch tours" for the visually impaired. Alansplodge (talk) 12:35, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
""Angry Small Boy" is a bronze statue of a nude infant boy modelled by Norwegian sculptor Gustav Vigeland ca. 1928."

Sculptures are sometimes exhibited in public places where they can be touched by blind people. The example shown stands in an Oslo park and its bronze surface is kept polished by visitors who often stroke it (either for art appreciation or just "good luck"). Philvoids (talk) 16:21, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

June 17